Bruce Bassi#FuturePsychiatryPodcast discusses novel technology and new ideas in the field of mental health. New episodes are released every Monday on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, etc.
Summary
In this enlightening episode, we’re joined by Derek Du Chesne and Dr. Sam Zand, the co-founders of Better U, a company that is revolutionizing the field of mental health by providing access to innovative treatments like Ketamine therapy. The conversation delves into the challenges of patient education, the legislative landscape, and the unique approach to mental health care. They emphasize the importance of individualized care, debunk common misconceptions about psychedelic medications, and share their insights on the future of mental health treatments.
Chapters / Key Moments
00:00 Intro
01:36 Better U Background Story
04:26 Is Ketamine a Typical First Treatment Choice
05:45 The Patient Experience During Ketamine Therapy
09:19 The Ideal Candidate For Ketamine Therapy
12:52 The Ketamine Experience
14:24 More About The Ketamine Journey
16:58 How To Find The Right Ketamine Clinic or Therapist
20:44 Danger Of Daily Ketamine
22:51 Long lasting Impact of Ketamine Therapy
23:46 How Many Sessions Does Ketamine Therapy Take
26:44 Safety Precautions
28:21 Logistics Of Ketamine Therapy
31:06 Cultural Acceptance Of Ketamine Therapy
37:28 New Horizons In Therapy – Ibogaine VS. Ketamine VS. MDMA
46:38 Growth of Better U As A Company
50:15 Covid As Accelerator For Innovative Therapy & Telehealth
Table Of Contents
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Revolutionizing Mental Health: Better U’s Innovative Approach to Psychedelic Treatments
In the realm of mental health care, innovative approaches are not just welcomed, they are necessary. One company that has been at the forefront of these innovative treatments is Better U, co-founded by Derek Du Chesne and Dr. Sam Zand. This ground-breaking company is revolutionizing mental health care by providing access to pioneering treatments, like Ketamine therapy, and focusing on individualized care.
In this enlightening conversation, Derek and Dr. Sam delve into the challenges of patient education, the legislative landscape, and the unique approach to mental health care that sets Better U apart.
Key Takeways:
- Better U, co-founded by Derek Du Chesne and Dr. Sam Zand, is revolutionizing mental health care by providing access to pioneering treatments like Ketamine therapy, and focusing on individualized patient care.
- One of the significant challenges in mental health care is patient education, particularly in debunking misconceptions about psychedelic medications. Better U is committed to reeducating the public about the benefits of treatments like Ketamine therapy.
- Navigating the legislative landscape of psychedelic treatments is complex due to multiple regulatory boards and ever-changing telemedicine laws. Better U is prepared to adapt and pivot according to these changes, ensuring they continue to provide the best care for their patients.
- Better U’s unique approach to mental health care emphasizes individualized care, meeting patients where they are and providing the care that best suits their needs. They offer Ketamine therapy as a significant part of their treatment approach.
- Looking towards the future, Better U sees significant potential in psychedelic medications in transforming mental health care. They believe that as more evidence of the transformative effects of these treatments emerges, the societal stereotypes will gradually fade.
Challenges of Patient Education in Mental Health
Patient education is one of the most significant challenges in the mental health field. It is crucial to educate patients about their mental health conditions and the treatments available to them. However, due to societal stigma and misconceptions, this can be a daunting task.
Derek Du Chesne, co-founder of Better U, emphasizes that patient education remains the biggest hurdle. Until there is a significant investment in reeducating the public about the benefits of treatments like Ketamine therapy, this challenge will persist.
Better U is tackling this challenge head-on by focusing on debunking common misconceptions and fears about psychedelic medications. They are committed to changing these perceptions and helping patients understand that these treatments can be life-changing and transformative.
Navigating the Legislative Landscape of Psychedelic Treatments
The legislative environment for psychedelic treatments is another significant challenge. With multiple regulatory boards and ever-changing telemedicine laws, navigating this landscape can be complex.
However, Better U has an exceptional team and the best healthcare attorneys in the country to stay on top of these changes. They are prepared to adapt and pivot according to the changing regulations, ensuring they continue to provide the best care for their patients within the legal confines.
Better U’s Unique Approach to Mental Health Care
What sets Better U apart is their emphasis on individualized care. Dr. Sam Zand, co-founder of Better U, asserts that the key is to meet patients where they are and provide them with the care that best suits their needs.
Ketamine therapy plays a significant role in their treatment approach. This innovative treatment has shown promising results in treating mental health conditions like depression, anxiety, and PTSD. Better U is making this therapy more accessible, providing patients with the option to undergo treatment at home or in the office, depending on their comfort and state regulations.
Debunking Misconceptions about Psychedelic Medications
One of the primary goals of Better U is to debunk misconceptions about psychedelic medications. There is a societal stigma attached to these treatments, often associated with the hippie movement or recreational drug use. However, Better U is working tirelessly to change these perceptions and educate people about the therapeutic benefits of these treatments.
The Future of Mental Health Treatments
Looking towards the future, Better U sees significant potential in psychedelic medications in transforming mental health care. They believe that as more robust evidence of the transformative effects of these treatments emerges, the societal stereotypes will gradually fade.
In their closing remarks, both Derek and Dr. Sam emphasize the importance of hope. For anyone struggling with mental health issues, especially suicidal ideation, treatments like Ketamine therapy can be life-saving. They encourage anyone feeling lost or hopeless to reach out and explore the innovative treatments available.
In a world where mental health care often follows a one-size-fits-all approach, Better U is pioneering a revolution. Their commitment to individualized care, innovative treatments, and patient education is setting a new standard in mental health care.
Resources
To learn more about Better U please click here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekduchesne/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-sam-zand/
Transcript
FOP017: Demystifying Psychedelic Medications: A Conversation with BetterU’s Co-founders
[00:00:00] Intro
Dr. Sam Zand: I think from a mental health perspective, you know, as a psychiatrist, I’ve been doing this work for years and it’s almost, it’s sad sometimes to see people trying so hard to, you know, come to the office, take their medication, do their therapy, and still not feel better because there’s so many other factors that are contributing that maybe traditional psychiatry isn’t best suited to help approach.
Now we have the power to really heal ourselves, you know, body, mind, and spirit. And I think that trend in what hasn’t been working for decades for most people, you know, sure there’s the minorities that traditional approaches work very well, but the majority of our patients, they, it just, it’s failed them.
And so I think this is why the industry is ready for disruption and psychedelic medicine has taken the lead to really focus on this neuroplastic therapy moving forward.
Bruce Bassi: Welcome to the Future of Psychiatry podcast. My name is Dr. Bassi, and today we have Dr. Zand and Derek Duchenne here from BetterU. And they are a ketamine and Spravato clinic that practices in person and also at home to deliver ketamine, which is an incredible experience for patients to recover from depression and other types of mental health issues.
And welcome you both to the podcast to talk to me today. It’s an interesting topic.
Derek Du Chesne: Thank you for having us and we’re, yeah, very excited, excited to be here and the future of psychiatry. I think the name of your podcast couldn’t be more fitting for what we’re about to dive into today.
Bruce Bassi: So Derek, can you tell me a little bit about you, why you started it with Dr. Zand and what you all do? What is your mission?
[00:01:36] BetterU Background Story
Derek Du Chesne: Excellent. So we started BetterU to help make the psychedelic therapy and, and these types of treatment modalities more, more accessible. I never understood why somebody would end their own life and I knew people that I. Had had com committed suicide, and I knew people, I would see people on the news, and I just never, never really understood it.
And growing up, kind of always being a pretty positive person. And a few years back in 2019 I didn’t realize it at the time, but my entire identity and my happiness was based on external factors. My job at the time and, and my relationship and external factors can always, can always change.
And when both of those took a 180 around the same time, I didn’t know who I was anymore. And I was pretty burnt out from, from working for overworking and became severely depressed, which evolved into me planning to, to end my, my own life. And I was incredibly disconnected from, from myself and.
And others. And at the time, you know, I thought the world would be a much better place without me in it. And a friend dragged me into a Ketamine clinic in Los Angeles. And that one session took me from this completely unrecognizable version of myself to about 90% back. Right? I still had some underlying issues that I had to deal with, but I felt like myself again for the first time in a long time.
The challenge then was that there was no kind of treatment preparation to prepare, like what I was about to experience during the session. And there was no kind of follow up or, or integration afterwards to help make sure that this was gonna be, help me get the most outta the sessions, right?
So, After about six months later around the, when the pandemic started, I started exploring further about about ketamine therapy and seeing the, the power that it had with me, and then also learning more about the future of psychiatry with M D M A therapy, with Iboga, with an analog of L S D for Alzheimer’s.
And throughout this journey, crossed paths with Dr. Zand, and we came together. He was already treating patients for years with Spravato and IV ketamine in the office. And we came together to, to build better ute, to make this more accessible and make it more do the best, giving patients the best chance for the best possible outcome.
Bruce Bassi: Nice. Well, I appreciate you sharing a little bit about your story to help alleviate some stigma towards mental health and mental illness treatment. So your first foray into treatment was ketamine, or had you. Tried and failed, I guess is the right word. Other options that are typical for people to go right to ketamine?
[00:04:26] Is Ketamine a typical first treatment choice
Derek Du Chesne: It’s not typical. And I, and I did try and fail at other options. I think I exhausted every holistic and, and a couple of, of antidepressants before, before choosing ketamine. And I just, just kept getting worse. And I was doing all the right things. I was doing everything that, you know, my, my doctor told me I was doing everything that I could, I could find in my self-help journey.
And nothing, nothing was, was helping me. I wish that I had started with ketamine therapy or ketamine therapy was recommended to me. Before, before these other things. But yeah, it was, it was not the first, first choice for me. I mean, it was actually the last choice. I was incredibly reluctant to go in and try it because in my mind, ketamine was a horse tranquilizer.
I didn’t have my limited, you know, education and knowledge around it. That’s what I knew.
Bruce Bassi: And you mentioned one thing that you wanted better you to do is to give the patient a better lead in and conclusion with the ketamine experience. Right? And so it sounds like, can you walk us through what a patient might expect when they reach out to better you in terms of initial consults, whether or not this is right for me.
And then the subsequent ketamine treatment. How does that all work?
[00:05:45] The Patient Experience During Ketamine Therapy
Derek Du Chesne: Yeah, absolutely. So the patient experience starts with, they, they come to our website, they fill out a form or, or they call our office and then they have a free consultation with one, one of our nurses. And typically during that consultation, they’ll get a little bit of their, their medical history, not a full deep dive, and they’ll go through some of the contraindications such as history of psychosis or schizophrenia currently abusing illegal substances and, and these types of things to kind of, assess, get a brief assessment if this treatment might, might be right for them.
If they determine that it is right for them, then, then the patient will schedule their clinical appointment. And during the clinical appointment, the clinician will determine to go walk, do a deeper dive on their medical history, determine the dosage, and then after. After they get accepted into the program, then we send something called a brain box.
And the brain box includes a blood pressure cuff, a a, a journal meditation mask class, and a handful of things to help you kinda get the most out of each one of these sessions. Once they receive that box, they jump on again with a treatment preparation call with one of our integration coaches or one of our therapists.
And that’s to help to make sure that people are mentally and physically prepared and that they’ve gone through all the safety protocols, understand everything in the portal. And sometimes people I mean say the majority of people do not have, never had a psychedelic experience or ketamine therapy experience.
So it’s natural to have a little bit of anxiety coming into it. So we’ll do a little meditation or breath work with them. And since people are doing this at home, For, for most of our programs they have, we started a very low dose called the dose acclimation, and then, you know, a week later do a little more work our way up to, to a more of a therapeutic dose.
Our session focuses, our healing, growth, love, transcend. We’ll dive into more of that later. After they get to that therapeutic dose, they jump back on with one of our integration coaches or therapists to help them unpack the experience and really dive more into like goal setting and, and really processing what, what, what’s happened.
And then looking, looking at the future for, for their next sessions. They also, we also have an app in the, in the app. It helps them with all the communication with our, our clinical team, their coaches, the mood monitoring and, and tracking their progress and all the programs, meditation, breath, work exercises are all in there.
And that’s kind of the full patient experience. Some people after one month or one package, like, wow, that’s, Exactly the reset that I needed, and I feel good. Other people, it’s, it’s a couple of months, you know, every, every, everybody’s different.
Bruce Bassi: Yeah. Thank you. It sounds like your approach is really thoughtful and it’s also driven by your own personal experience, which is really important because I know as a doctor, I, I have one feeling about, you know, the office and then as when you’re a patient, it’s like totally different that experience and flow and it’s almost like a necessary thing.
I think most doctors should, should go through, to see what the patients are experiencing because they’re there, there’s often very subtle cues and clues that might change one’s perception of the TTL there in the office. You mentioned that psychosis and schizophrenia might be contraindicated, but is, are there certain. Is there kind of a picture of a patient who would do really well with ketamine versus somebody who might not, like, maybe somebody’s has panic or anxiety, and is there anything to mitigate that other than the, the lower starting off with a low dosage?
[00:09:19] The Ideal Candidate For Ketamine Therapy
Dr. Sam Zand: It’s a really interesting question and coming from the angle of trying to educate, you know, providers about how to really understand who’s the right patient for this. Previously, when we think about how providers are trained and us both being psychiatrists, we understand there’s the diagnostic criteria and we wanna try to get a little bit of background of the symptomatology, what they’re presenting with acutely and what it looked like over time.
And it’s led us to trying to find the right d s m diagnosis and then going down the algorithmic treatment path. But I think what we’re really finding with ketamine therapy and every new iteration of treatments that are coming out that focus more on neuroplasticity, the brain’s ability to create neural connections, is that we don’t have to hyperfocus on diagnosis, to be honest.
We have to play by the rules, right? The d e a has its rules, the pharmacy boards and everything. And so of course what we’re usually screening for is a mental health diagnosis that meets standard of care, depression, anxiety, P T S D, or kind of the bread and butter. But what we’re trying to get away from is limiting people into feeling like they have this one diagnosis, and this one diagnosis has this series of answers of how to fix it.
Instead, we want to help people just be more self-aware and explore all of the upstream factors that are contributing to some of these downstream symptoms. And so, The ideal candidate, I think, is more about who we shouldn’t treat than who we should, because we really feel like most people can benefit from enhanced self-exploration, neuroplastic reset.
And so whether you’re going through depression or anxious thought patterns, or you’ve had some trauma and that’s been coming up in difficult ways what we really wanna make sure is that you’re not in an extreme state of mania and you don’t have a history of having severe mania because we know there’s a propensity that this could cause kind of a worse manic outcome.
We wanna make sure that you’re emotionally and physically ready for treatment. Meaning you don’t have a whole bunch of toxins in your body, be it drugs of abuse or be it even just a lot of medications that might be prescribed that aren’t a good fit. And that emotionally you understand that we’re not just approaching this as a, you know, take your Prozac and take it every day.
We’ll talk to you in a month, but we’re diving into a therapeutic exploration. That has a lot to do with our subconscious, and so a lot of education goes into that and somebody’s not ready perhaps for that deeper dive. Well, they might get it by month two, month three, and we might just start them more gently, but we’re really trying to shift the narrative around looking for the proper diagnosis and treating it and get out of that disease state model and dive more into this.
Just let’s add harmony and balance to areas of our life that may need more attention. And this therapy really helps us see it from that perspective.
Bruce Bassi: Cool. Yeah, I appreciate that. Answer about the diagnosis. I do notice often people are kind of latched onto oh, a term essentially, and that’s what it is. It’s an artificial construct, a man-made construct, and doesn’t encapsulate the patient’s entire experience, but yet they over identify with that term. Let’s first talk about how people feel with ketamine, just physically, mentally at the moment. And then we can maybe talk about the experience and how therapy is incorporated into that process of, of using ketamine. So do people feel calm at ease? Does anybody ever feel more anxious with ketamine?
Is that even something people should ever be concerned about?
[00:12:52] The Ketamine Experience
Dr. Sam Zand: I think the whole spectrum is possible and the preparation is so important, as Derek alluded to going into it with what we always coach is breathing techniques for relaxation. Maybe progressive muscle relaxation, ways of calming down the body and enhancing the parasympathetic that kind of.
Restful state, getting away from the fight or flight. With that, you’re giving yourself the chance of really having a nice, relaxing experience. We don’t recommend people to be, you know, going into it feeling anxious and we say, maybe this isn’t the right time to start the treatment. Let’s work through that and then let’s start your treatment.
In addition, we start with a very low dose. So at that range we kind of call it a meditation enhanced sorry, a medication enhanced meditation where you’re in this meditative state, you’re slightly feeling maybe a little dissociative or altered. Things are a little different, but at a lower dose, it’s really much more that I’m present to what’s going on.
I’m present to my breath. I’m able to slow down. As we accelerate by week two or three to maybe a more moderate or higher dose, it can become a little psychedelic where with an eye mask and headphones. People are going through their journeys of maybe seeing things from their past, the future, seeing things that they’ve never experienced.
We’ve had, you know, people explain, they feel like they’re swimming in the ocean or flying in the sky, but these aren’t the introductory feelings, right? This is once we’ve done the treatment for a while and we really want to help someone gently get there so that they don’t feel anxious or they don’t have a, you know, difficult outcome throughout the experience.
[00:14:24] The Ketamine Journey
Bruce Bassi: Cool. And so, Derek mentioned the initial consult was with the nurse, and then it sounds like you’ve mentioned there’s also a therapy incorporated into the, what do you call the experience? It just called the experience or the administration of the vet, the ketamine, the
Derek Du Chesne: Yeah, it’s the, the, you know, the journey, the session, the, the experience. You know, it all depends, right? And, and I think touching back on the previous question is the delivery method is incredibly important for the type of experience that people are gonna have. ’cause I know a lot of people outside of us or a lot of patients that come to us for the at-home program have, have done IM injections, right?
Or IVs. And it was too much too soon, you know, all at once, especially in the veteran community where. You know, they’re, they’re trained to not, you know, if you’re, if you’re out of control or you’re losing control, that’s, that’s a life or death situation. So their brain immediately goes to that. And so when you take somebody into this very deep disconnected kind of experience, while that can be incredibly therapeutic, if, if not done properly, it can be traumatic as well.
And the so, you know, ss bravado in office, which is a, a lower dose in intranasal the at home, or it’s a tr or a lozenge. And we can really find that during that does acclimation, find what works for somebody and or the iv or Im, which typically I, I recommend to people after you’ve already had experience with ketamine therapy and, and know what to expect, that, you know, that that could be a path forward as well.
The journey or, or session or, or experience? Can I think that I. Terminology is gonna be based off of the dosage as well. ’cause like Sam said, we have that medication enhanced meditation, which is okay, this is a nice relaxing session and it helps me disconnect from my default mode network and start to explore or feel things without that normal emotional charge attached to current events.
Past events, there’s things that are happening in your life that you wanna bring attention to. And also when you move, when you work your way up to a higher dosage and you’re having these almost immediate profound aha moments or, or epiphanies or, or shifts and, and, and things that might’ve been weighing you down or stuff in your life you didn’t even know was, was, was affecting you.
And, and when you have that, somebody might come out of that and say, wow, that was a really transformational journey for me.
[00:16:58] How To Find The Right Ketamine Clinic / Therapist
Bruce Bassi: Appreciate that. So it sounds like one thing that sets you apart is this gentle, more gentle and thoughtful introduction to ketamine, both with the initial session and the dosage and titration. Are there any other factors that patients who might be listening to this podcast should consider?
Because there’s, you know, even when you’re looking for a psychiatrist or therapist, it’s really hard to tell who you wanna work for or work with based on their website. But are there any other factors that you would suggest patients consider when they are starting that process of thinking about reaching out to Ketamine clinic?
Dr. Sam Zand: Access, ability to talk to the team. I think one thing that we’ve done so well throughout every iteration of contact, whether it’s from a nurse, an assistant, a psychiatric provider, or a therapist or a coach, We’re all available. And I think that is a big differentiator when we’re seeing just the landscape out there.
You know, some, some companies frankly don’t even have a phone number you can call. And so if something’s going wrong, it’s like, well, what do I do? Right? I’m sending this email and I’m waiting. And, and so we prioritize the ability for our community to really reach out and be responded to, and, and if they want their handheld through this process, we’re there for them.
And some people don’t. Some people may have done this treatment before and now they just want to bring the work into a thoughtful place at home that feels safe for them. And so we can help them a little bit more from a distance. But access, I think, is one of the important things that everybody should look for when they’re trying to find the right fit.
How do I get in touch if something’s, you know, not feeling right, or if I have a question?
Bruce Bassi: Mm-hmm. And sometimes it’s not even it, it’s just the reassurance that somebody is there if, if you need them,
Derek Du Chesne: Absolutely. This, this type of treatment can, can be life changing, right? And I think that it’s reckless when there’s prescribers or companies out there that are sending high doses of a, a, you know, pseudos psychedelic experience to patients. And then when a patient wants to unpack it or help understand it, or have, have their handheld throughout this journey that they can’t get ahold of anybody.
And the, the, I think the one-on-one looking at it from, from. What my experience was as a patient and, and seeing what I thought could be done better. I think we’ve really really focused on that, on, on that piece. And then with Dr. Z’s side on, on the medical side of it is the ketamine is, when done once or twice a week at a certain dosage is, can be incredibly safe, but there’s companies out there that are prescribing daily ketamine, which you know, from a medical perspective, I, I think is also very dangerous.
And so I think looking at The overall package of what, what it is that they’re, they’re signing up for and, and the access to, to providers. Access to support, access to the team. Is there somebody that answers the phones when they call? Is there somebody that responds to their messages? These are all incredibly important things to, and, and what are the preparation tools?
Like? We, you know, we send the blood pressure cuffs, the, the, the journals, the, the mask and everything to make sure that like a risk is somebody with undiagnosed hypertension and, and coming into these sessions and not knowing that, right? So we always have people check their blood pressure before. And so it’s all these little things that add up to making a huge difference.
And there’s some great people out there doing fantastic things. And there’s also some people out there that I think are doing things that are, can, can be harmful.
[00:20:44] Danger Of Daily Ketamine
Bruce Bassi: Yeah, I, so the, the daily ketamine, is that more probably like a microdosing of ketamine? I haven’t heard of anyone. Dr. Z do you? Know of any clinics, you don’t have to name the names of the clinics, but do clinics do that?
Dr. Sam Zand: Yeah, for years I think where this treatment was more common was in pain clinics. And so we’ve been seeing ketamine be prescribed now as patients come to our community and say, my pain doctor gives this to me daily. Can I continue daily with you? And we said, unfortunately, no, we don’t agree with that treatment because the safety data isn’t there.
And we are seeing, in fact, some risk of daily use affecting the bladder, affecting blood pressure, affecting tolerance and dependence as well. And so knowing that there’s risky data there and there’s not a lot of safety data, and I think those pain protocols that go for daily use are really dangerous.
And then there’s this microdose that you alluded to. What if we give people a very, very low dose, it’s perceived as safe. And again, the safety data just isn’t there. Right. Nobody has done clinical trials, let alone just any kind of anecdotal, you know, large number of samples. I, I speak for SS bravado. I know their clinical trials well.
And they have four years of safety data out there. And you know, a lot of drug companies can, I really don’t know any other drug companies that can claim four years of safety data. But that’s with once weekly use, right? You start twice a week, you get to once a week, maybe you graduate every two weeks.
And it’s tremendous to know that at doses where you actually feel a dissociative perceptual change, more than 50% of them after four years, they’re still feeling benefit efficacy. And also there’s no new safety factors that we are being alarmed about or concerned about. So I agree with Derek that it’s a little bit of a slippery slope if we’re seeing these companies who are promoting daily use.
I think it takes away from the point of what we’re doing too, to connect with ourselves once or twice a week and realign, you know, prioritize what’s important in our life. That therapeutic journey, I think, really should be once or twice a week on top of the medication enhancement.
[00:22:51] Long lasting impact of Ketamine Therapy
Bruce Bassi: You said something even four years after they’re doing well. Is that right? Four years is the
Dr. Sam Zand: they have data SVA that was published, and these are all, you know, of approved clinical trials. Now, after the fact, they followed their population for four years. By year three, they still had about 50, 60% or 60% in that sample size. So this was pretty strong data. It was a powerful study.
They studied both efficacy and safety outcomes. Now there’s no control study against that, so they can’t publish it and say that four years later, you know, this is going to have the efficacy versus the placebo and this and that. But I think what really stood out is people who were doing well, stayed doing well.
People who had initial side effects didn’t really drop out because the side effects are short-lived, and we didn’t see any long-term health risks that came out of it.
[00:23:46] How Many Sessions For Ketamine Therapy
Bruce Bassi: Wow. So what is like a typical stretch of, of sessions? Like how many, is it 12 sessions? 15. And what do you do at the end of those? If their depression is in remission, for example, like, It just does. Do you taper down the dosage and the frequency before stopping, or how does that work?
Dr. Sam Zand: Yeah, I think everyone has a different kind of protocol and if you look at s bravado, they’ll tell you twice a week for the first month, once a week for the second month, and then once every one or two weeks after that forever is what they say, right? And, and we can all make our assumptions as to maybe why they promote forever.
But you know, I think that the science behind it is usually this is a high risk population. We don’t want them to relapse. And the relapse numbers in their studies are much higher when people come off than when they stay on with our company. One thing that I think really. Separates us as well is that, you know, Derek comes from wellness and business, right?
And I come from psychiatry and business as well. And both of us in our careers have prioritized social welfare. Doing the right thing for the patient, right? Putting the patient first, putting the team second, putting the bottom line last, you know, per se. And by doing that, we tell our patients, we really only want you to be on this for maybe 1, 2, 3 months.
Now some people may stay on longer and we’ll ask ’em to take breaks as well, but the work is being done through just maybe, you know, eight sessions, 12 sessions. And then afterwards we can taper off and say to ourselves, is this lasting? And our goal is that it does last for people. We don’t want people to be on ketamine for the rest of their lives.
Bruce Bassi: Right. Yeah. I’m, I’m, in my mind, I’m. I’m in my mind equating this to, or comparing it to SS s r i treatments and E C T treatments. And I’m thinking about how much variability there is there. And so it’s hard to formulate a question because I’m asking about the typical, but I know there is really no typical, and it really does depend on the patient and their mental health history and how they’re responding to ketamine.
You’re obviously not gonna keep doing it if it’s not working for somebody, which I imagine happens with ketamine as well. Not everything is a hundred percent efficient. So, but as long as the process that’s in place has these checks there for us to reevaluate and measure and then make a determination what, what we wanna do next, I think that’s most important no matter what drug you’re administering, whether it’s ketamine or something else.
Dr. Sam Zand: Right. It changes what we’re used to as practitioners and patients who are told, take this medication, take it every day. It’s almost like a vitamin, right? It’s like it becomes part of who you are. And instead, this is kind of a new paradigm shift, right? Let’s find these transformative experiences to accelerate our therapeutic growth and then come back if we need a little touch up.
[00:26:44] Safety Precautions
Bruce Bassi: And for patients who may be a bit more leery about what the ketamine experience is going to be like, what are the safety precautions that they should know about that are already in place to identify and correct any sort of adverse effect that it might have?
Dr. Sam Zand: Yeah. I, I can talk quickly on just kind of, you know, what, what the contraindications are and then Derek maybe can speak on what we do uniquely to maintain safety and comfort for everybody. Namely, we wanna do a medical review and if somebody comes to us, says, I’m young and healthy and I’ve seen my doctor, you know, just a month ago, and I have blood results.
You know, there’s not a lot of investigative work that needs to be done, but most of our patients have a range of maybe medical illnesses that they’re dealing with. We want to get a clearance letter, usually from their provider. If they had some kind of cardiovascular event, whether it was a history of MI or stroke, their blood pressure needs to be well controlled.
These are metrics that are pretty consistent. I wanna make sure they don’t have a history of uncontrolled seizures. We talked about not having any extreme mania or psychotic kind of episodes. Acute substance abuse. Very interesting. I think this is a fantastic treatment for substance abuse, but not for detox.
Right? We have to already be detoxed. And then the recovery component can be augmented by ketamine. I. But these are a lot of the precautions. Making sure that their home is a safe environment for these treatments. If we’re doing it there, that they have someone in their life, their peer support, who can be there for them once they’re in the treatment.
You know, then there’s just so many layers of our ability to be there for them and, and guide them through it to keep them feeling comfortable and safe.
[00:28:21] Logistics Of Ketamine Therapy
Bruce Bassi: Are they allowed to drive at any point during the rest of the day? And does that affect what, like what time of day they’re suggested to do the therapy? Is it mostly afternoon so that if they need to do something in the morning, they can get that done? Or do they recover fairly quickly after the session and can expect to do work at home later?
Dr. Sam Zand: I, I think the important thing is in the beginning to be very cautious, and this is where you see some of these IV clinics and you know, we do the IVs as well, but we never start anybody on a high dose. A lot of these clinics, they come in, they charge a thousand dollars a pop and they wanna make sure you feel something.
So they usually dose you pretty high and that can lead to hours of grogginess, maybe days of just feeling off. Where when we start low and slow and then you get to a level where you know what it’s going to feel like. Usually for most people, it’s one or two hours and they’re kind of back to their normal selves.
Some people feel like, you know, it’s this, this lingers for three to five hours and I have to budget that time. Generally, we kind of know these metrics by the second, third session so that we know how to plan it moving forward. So we’d be overly cautious in the beginning, no driving day, you know, during the day of treatment.
But for many, they can do this treatment in the daytime as long as they’ve really reserved the data not to anything super serious, you know, not operating heavy machinery, making major life decisions. Within two, three hours, they’re usually back to their normal self feeling more inspired, more open-minded.
Derek Du Chesne: And in some patients we’ve seen that they say that it helps with sleep and they prefer to do their sessions right before bed. Other people, it interferes with sleep and they prefer to do it first thing in the morning since you have to do the treatments on a fasted, you know, when, when, when your stomach’s fasted and you haven’t eaten or drank anything.
So it’s, it kind of. Varies and it’s, it’s pretty, pretty split down the middle and people are like, I prefer to do this in the morning. I prefer to do it at night. And with iv and Im, it’s, it’s, yeah, typically outta your system or your, you return to your baseline pretty, pretty quickly with the oral administration.
If they expel the medicine, they spit after the administration, they have to hold the medicine in their mouth for about 12 minutes. If they expel the ME medicine, then they’re typically much quicker to return to their baseline. For people with chronic pain a lot of times the clinicians will recommend to ingest the medi medication and that increases the analgesic, like the pain relief benefits, but it also will, can kind of make it so that the medication or that the feeling of it can come back in waves for a couple of hours, or you may feel a bit groggy the next day.
And, and that’s, yeah, that’s completely normal and everybody’s different. And that’s, that’s why we kind of. Every day that when we start people, we tell them here’s, we, we, we play it as safe as possible. And making sure that you’re doing it on a weekend or a day off with no work, no responsibilities, not driving, not doing anything.
And then, yeah, from there they can, they can learn how to move forward.
[00:31:06] Cultural Acceptance Of Ketamine Therapy
Bruce Bassi: Interesting. Thank you for that. Let’s shift gears a little bit and talk about cultural acceptance of ketamine. And I guess we could talk about psychedelics as well, and in that category somewhat. And why do you feel that these are just exploding on the scene and are really for the most part, from my experience, widely accepted.
By a lot of patients and clinicians alike. What are your thoughts?
Dr. Sam Zand: I think from a mental health perspective, you know, as a psychiatrist, I’ve been doing this work for years and it’s almost, it’s sad sometimes to see people trying so hard to, you know, come to the office, take their medication, do their therapy, and still not feel better because there’s so many other factors that are contributing that maybe traditional psychiatry isn’t best suited to help approach.
So when ketamine therapy, Spravato psychedelic therapy came onto the scene, I think those taking the medicines, those, you know, working on their mental health and practitioners both saw the profound benefit of the innate ability to heal oneself once we get out of our own way and these neuroplastic habits that haven’t been serving us, or a little bit reset or default mode network is able to, you know, kind of be this warm clay that we’re able to then go into our subconscious and remold.
Now we have the power to really heal ourselves, you know, body, mind, and spirit. And I think that trend in what hasn’t been working for decades for most people, you know, sure there’s the minorities that traditional approaches work very well, but the majority of our patients, they, it just, it’s failed them.
And so I think this is why the industry is ready for disruption and psychedelic medicine has taken the lead to really focus on this neuroplastic therapy moving forward.
Bruce Bassi: Awesome. Derek, do you have any thoughts on that question?
Derek Du Chesne: Yeah, I think it’s a really exciting and interesting time for, for mental health and, and, and for humanity as a whole, right? Because you look at what hasn’t worked for so long and you look at the global mental health crisis, especially since, since the pandemic, how bad things have really gotten. And when I, I believe that anything in life, whether it’s personal, financial, interpersonal you know, any major challenge that, that, that gets thrown at us or that we don’t feel like we can get out of, I believe that we can solve that with a shift in perspective and, and, and. I believe almost any problem can be solved with a shift in perspective. And with ketamine therapy in particular, it allows us to step away from our, our ego, step away from, from our default mode network and, and really get that bird’s eye view of, of what’s happening in our life. And also look at things in our past, the traumas and the things that we’ve been through.
And instead of those things being a part of us or, or, or our thoughts and our negative ruminating, you know, anxious thoughts or cycles that we get into, we can separate from those, right? And just look at those things as what they are. They’re just, they’re just thoughts. That’s not who I am. And look at things that happened in our past.
These are some terrible things that happened. But this isn’t who I am as a person. So being able to disconnect and, and, and, and really spend quality time with yourself, I think is incredibly powerful and healing. And if you look at society as a whole embracing over the last few years, you know, with a lot of the media coming out with a lot of different documentaries and Netflix specials and looking at the science of what, you know, we were really onto and, and, and the fifties and sixties before, before all of it kind of got buried with you know, with l you know, an analog of LSD for Alzheimer’s with MDMA therapy for for PTSD and then, and tremendous success that, that the maps is having with that, and that hopefully near f d a approval IGA for opiate addiction.
It blows my mind that, that that’s, that, that that treatment isn’t available in the United States when there’s, you know, there’s the, the data for people and, and if looking at the opioid crisis in the United States, how bad it’s gotten and, and there’s a treatment that’s incredibly effective, but it’s not accessible.
So I think that more and more people, Are, are becoming with access to the internet and access to information and, and, and, and looking for ways to heal themselves. It used to be you go to your doctor and the doctor says, Hey, take this and you’ll get better. And then, you know, flip the page. If that doesn’t work, increase the dosage, lower the dosage.
And unfortunately at, you know, at scale, that that hasn’t been the most effective with a lot of different types of pharmaceuticals. So they think these alternative medicines are really starting to take a, a, it’s really starting to gain traction. And I think it’s incredibly exciting. Like a few years ago, a lot of the, the, the doctors that we talked to in the medical community would be anti ketamine therapy.
And similar to how Sam was when he first heard about ketamine therapy, similar to how I was as a patient, I’m like, this sounds crazy. And now because the, the data and the, and the safety that used to be years ago, I. You, you give somebody these transformational healing experiences, they become your biggest advocate, right?
They’re gonna tell everybody, Hey, this is what worked for me after years and years and years and, and different types of medications didn’t work. This helped. And, and a lot of people, I think over-prescribing and, and over diagnosing is a big problem. And the United States, especially in mental health and a lot of these medications can, the side effects are, are, can be worse than, than the issues that they had going into it.
And treating individuals not as take this pill for, for the rest of your life. But let’s try a couple of sessions and a couple of tweaks and, and with that lifestyle habits, like a lot, a lot of patients come to us and they don’t feel like they’re used to the model of, of, Hey, take this pill, let’s see how it works and get better.
And with our program it’s. You know, there’s a lot of things that go into it, right? There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s movement, exercise, sunshine there’s, there’s very structured, guided sessions and you have to put in the work to, to get the outcome and, and getting people to also shift on, on, on that as well.
So I think it’s, it’s, it’s an incredibly exciting time and happy to be a part of it.
[00:37:28] New Horizons In Therapy – Ibogaine VS. Ketamine VS. MDMA
Bruce Bassi: Yeah, I appreciate that answer and how you also mentioned the other non-pharmacologic factors that play as well because I think whenever there’s a new. Shiny objects. I think people probably sometimes latch onto that and have really high hopes for that being the thing that really is the, the only thing that can take them out of their depression when they still have to, you know, engage with loved ones and, and healthy social interactions and be sleeping well and exercising and eating right too. And I also appreciate how you gave us a little bit of historic background about how there was research into things that really had helped quite you know, in terms of research, they were very effective. But then we had buried or not paid attention to these options for probably 20 to 30 years as every hour shift of focus became on SSRIs.
And now I. I think people are starting to realize the truth about the effectiveness of SSRIs not being all that we had hoped for. Maybe back in the eighties there were over there was an overestimate of how well they could work, and now, you know, this, this nationwide legalization of marijuana which probably a whole nother topping in itself, but I think speaks to the sentiment that most Americans have now of wanting to at least try or have the ability to try other pharmaceutical options medi medications and maybe try something that’s more off the beaten path for them. So it’s an interesting time right now. I think it’s, it’s pretty cool. To have all these available. I think it’s also, it could feel kind of overwhelming. You, you both mentioned Ebo gain and M D M A and ketamine. Where does, I mean, other than like the web, how do you know? And I think, as a clinician, I’m also being left behind because we don’t have head-to-head studies comparing Ebo gain to ketamine yet.
You know, we don’t know which one is better for somebody. So how do you make that recommendation to somebody? Is there any thought process behind that? Like, is.
Dr. Sam Zand: yeah, it’s an important question when you’re in a kind of a cutting edge modality of we don’t have these f D A approvals, we don’t have all these clinical trials. I teach psychedelic medicine at residency programs, and when I was a resident, I wasn’t taught any of this. Right. I had my own skeptical beliefs about it.
And I think education is predominantly in what we don’t know. And I think we have to be verbal about that. I think patients traditionally come to us and expect us to have the answers. We don’t. Right? The brain is the wild frontier of medicine. And so I think as I teach psychiatry residents, these medicines basically unlock the ability for someone to know themselves better and to heal themselves better and treat themselves better.
Iga, M D M A psilocybin, all these things that may come out, we will have to rely at large as a medical community on clinical trials and F D A approvals, and they’re in motion, right? M D M A is in phase three. A lot of these other ones are in phase two, and so we’ll have the data soon. I think what we need to learn and prepare for now as a community is this shift in approach, this ability to reach within and reprogram the subconscious, understand the thought patterns and, and feelings that control us when we’re not fully present to them.
Because when we get that shift, whether it’s through ketamine or any other neuroplastic drug, then we’ll have the tools to know how to really shape that. And we have insights based on anecdotal, you know, studies and research. MDMA is probably gonna be very profound for sexual trauma and for people who can’t find self-love very easily because we know it’s in many ways a hard opener and it allows people to put their guard down and focus on love first.
A lot of these drugs share these characteristics, but the unique differences I think, you know, we’ll have to figure out scientifically moving forward. And it’s gonna be a really interesting, fascinating, you know, I think platform to be able to, to use these modalities soon.
Bruce Bassi: Do you have any feelings about misperceptions that the public has about psychedelics or any, is there anything that repeatedly comes up as an a misunderstanding you think people have, say when you’re talking to friends and family or around Thanksgiving dinner and you, I. Talking about how the business is going for you, and do they say anything that you feel like you ever, ever have to correct people on?
Tell them, Hey, it’s actually not quite like that,
Derek Du Chesne: Every day. Every day.
Dr. Sam Zand: right.
Bruce Bassi: such as what?
Dr. Sam Zand: you think as a practicing physician who teaches this and practices at a large, like everyone in my life would feel trusting about it, but I still can’t get mom to do it. Still can’t get a lot of my best friends to do it. And, you know, it’s, it’s that challenge of, I think people feel like I’m going to lose my mind.
I’m gonna lose control. I’m gonna hallucinate. Drugs are bad. These are all the, I think, Perceptions that are influenced by society and influenced by the extreme cases that we’ve seen and maybe over sensationalized as a society. But more and more we’re seeing the robust evidence of how people are saying, this changed my life.
This transformed my way of thinking. This improved my relationships. This helped me find love. And so as we see more and more of that conversation happening, I think these old kinds of stereotypes will be quieted a little bit. Derek, what do you see out there? You’re, you’re in LA and it’s much more prominent, but I’m sure you still see some people who are a little skeptical.
Derek Du Chesne: Yeah. Well, I mean, it depends on what the modalities that we’re talking about, but I think the most common thing that I get in. And social circles or family is, is the misunderstanding of, of what ketamine is, right? Like everybody that’s a horse tranquilizer. It’s this, it’s that, it’s this, it’s that. And similar to if I took my dog to the vet and I said, my dog has anxiety flying or traveling, they’re gonna give him Xanax.
Does that make Xanax aa, a dog, you know, anxiety medication? No. Right? And, and what people don’t understand and how I typically help them understand is that if you had an infant child and they got injured or broke their arm and they went to the hospital, the hospital would administer much higher doses of ketamine to, because it’s an, at high doses, is it anesthetic?
It’s not going to affect the respiratory system. So it’s, it’s, it’s incredibly safe and understanding that it’s used daily in hospitals at. Around the world, a as an anesthetic and has been prescribed off-label for a lot of these mental health issues. So helping people understand that, what they’ve heard about it, with ketamine as a horse tranquilizer.
Yes. It’s multipurpose, right? It’s like saying carrots or horse food, right? It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an analogy that helps people kind of wrap their brain around it. And the other one is really we’re battling, you know, the, the, the, the word psychedelic is having the stigma of being, you know, the, the hippie movement or, or anti-war movement and, and, and recreational drug use movement as opposed to really what it, you know, what the term is.
And that’s that portal or that gateway into, into our mind and, and self-exploration. So helping people get across that hump. And, and what you said before about when people are asking. You know what, what’s the best kind of healing modality for me? And, and I think that goes back to what, what it is that they’re trying to treat, right?
If somebody comes to us that has a certain thing that we’d say, Hey, ketamine’s, definitely, you know, probably not the right answer for you, but here’s a couple of other modalities that may help. Or if they say, Hey, I’ve tried X, Y, and Z and this hasn’t worked for me, so let’s now explore, you know, the other, other options because we specialize and, and in ketamine therapy and, and, and talk therapy.
It doesn’t mean that we’re not, we’re, we’re here to convince people that this is the right modality for them, right? We, we, if, if it isn’t then, then we help them find other resources and, and sometimes we can provide those internally. If it is, then we do our best that we can to give them the best outcomes.
Bruce Bassi: Appreciate that. Yeah, that makes sense. That’s as if a psychiatrist was only doing Prozac.
Derek Du Chesne: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly.
Bruce Bassi: the, to the
Derek Du Chesne: And then we’re, it is BetterU, like, we’re, we’re a mental health company and so we try, try to find people what modality works for them and well, we started off and came to market is really helping make Ketamine therapy more accessible as we’ve evolved and grown into other modalities and other types of treatments.
I said, you wanna help people find what works for them and ev and everybody’s different. So we’re, we’ve been expanding and, and, and opening up into more, more treatments and, and helping people, even if we’re not the right resource for them, helping them find, find that resource. I
[00:46:38] Growth of BetterU As A Company
Bruce Bassi: Yeah. And, and thank you for mentioning the growth of the company. ’cause that’s one thing I wanted to ask about. And I’m sure that there’s a lot of different challenges for you all as a company when you’re using something like ketamine. I mean, the landscape, the legislative landscape with the d a I feel like it’s constantly changing and we never really totally know what they’re gonna do next.
So there’s the legislative front, there’s the social acceptance and patient experience front, and then there’s the clinical front. Which of these do you feel like is more challenging now and where do you see things going in the future?
Derek Du Chesne: The patient education is definitely, I think, still the biggest hurdle and until there’s millions or tens of millions of dollars spent on, on reeducating the public about the benefits of ketamine therapy or other types of, of psychedelic therapies I think that’s gonna continue to be the biggest hurdle.
The regulatory you, the state medical boards, pharmacy boards, federal D E A F D A F T C, there’s a lot of different regulatory boards looking at these. And with telemedicine laws they were supposed to change, you know, back in May and then two days before, like, ah, actually we’re gonna extend these a little bit longer for,
Bruce Bassi: Right.
Derek Du Chesne: from Covid.
So that’s something that nobody
Bruce Bassi: in 2018 that registry was supposed to happen.
Derek Du Chesne: mm-hmm. E exactly. So it’s, it’s, well, everybody can plan for what we think’s going to happen and prepare, have plan B, C, and D. It doesn’t mean that we, we, we don’t have insight of, of what the regulatory is gonna gonna change to, and in, in our model, we’re in, I wanna say like 12, 13 states right now. And in our model, we wanna continue to make this as accessible as possible.
So if having that in-person visit becomes mandatory, then we will. We will pivot to that and, and, and make that more of what we’re, we’re providing. But reality is, people are looking for this at-home treatment for the, for the people that it’s right for, because it’s more affordable. And, and I think the big part of the therapeutic experience is that when you’re coming out of it in an office, like it could be the most beautiful setting there is, right?
But immediately you take off that eye mask and your brain goes from this therapeutic disconnect state to back to your executive mode network where you’re task oriented. You’re like, all right, I gotta get in an Uber. I have to stand up. There’s people around me that I don’t, you know, really know or am not too comfortable with.
And your brain kind of goes immediately to that. And when you’re doing it at home and, and in your own environment, you have the time to, to really integrate and really process the experience and spend that time coming back to. Your baseline on, on your own terms. I think that’s a big part of the therapeutic experience and it’s significantly cheaper for, for the patient and, and for the, the clinic too, to have these patients do it at home.
So, if it moves to in-office treatments only, you know, we, we will do that, but it’s going to make the accessibility much more hard, much more challenging for patients to get and it’s going to, yeah, we, we, we just dunno where it’s gonna go. So we’re, we’re, we’re planning, planning for the best and, and trying to stay the, the staying on top of the regulatory landscape is, is always an exciting journey.
But we’ve got an, we’ve got an incredible team. We have the best healthcare attorneys in the country and they’re always, always kind of one step ahead. So we, we, we lean on them for any advice for the Ford movement.
Bruce Bassi: Yeah, it is a challenging time in predicting that and that it drives a lot of patient angst too.
Derek Du Chesne: Are your thoughts on.
[00:50:15] Covid As Accelerator For Innovative Therapy & Telehealth
Bruce Bassi: Yeah. I feel like, I feel like the last three years with covid have been a good trial for how it should go and how it should work, and patients have come to accept that and understand that, and as have clinicians I think there have been a couple bad actors who were a little bit too lenient with the Adderall situation, and that has driven a lot of backlash and you know, concern among psychiatrists.
About lenient prescribing practices. I think that the d e a, once there’s one bad actor, I think they like, tend to overreact unfortunately. And so it’s unfortunate that they just haven’t finally come out with the registry or, or any sort of other solution that, that could work for the, the telehealth individuals and patients who wanna continue to, to safely, effectively and without a addiction, addiction or, or abuse or misuse, continue to take their medications that the doctor and the patient have come to agree that is, is the most appropriate option for them Now.
There’s so many. I did an interview for a, it was a radio show and I posted it on YouTube and there it was. It was about the opiate crisis and the new opioid guidelines. And you can tell people feel quite strongly about this topic because they feel like the conversation between them and their doctor is a sacred one.
It’s a one-on-one conversation and you know, the doctor understands you and you understand the doctor, and you come to a recommendation based on risk factors and benefits that those medications give you. And you, you, you come up with a plan and then you have all of these legislators making rules that, that really make this process a lot more difficult for everybody.
And God knows our lives are difficult enough already. Everyone’s going through their own stuff. And you know, to some extent I feel like it is kind of making it a little bit too complicated with all of this. I think maybe it’s also an overcompensation from the opioid crisis as well. I mean, that’s why the Ryan Haight Act laws exist in the first place.
It was basically at the height of that period in 2008. And so, you know, I think we just need to be smarter about it and, and give a little bit of trust between the patients and the clinicians to do the right thing. And the vast majority of people, I think, wanna do the right thing, and they’re, they’re identifiable and being in person is not going to make any great significant difference in identifying that patient versus getting their license and, and seeing them online.
I mean, we have online notaries that can verify your identity. I don’t know why being in person is that much more significant of a, of a factor for the d e a, but that’s my take.
Dr. Sam Zand: It’s certainly a difficult thing to navigate. You know, two years ago it was trying to figure it out and kind of being on the frontier of figuring it out. And after a legal team and legal team, you’re spot on. The answer is always just do the right thing for the patient. Right? Get to know them, spend the time, meet them where they are.
And I think if we try to put everybody into the same formulaic approach, then we’re not providing the best care. And so we play within the bumpers of what’s legal, what’s allowed, but the key is to meet them where they are. If they want to meet in the office, we can do that. If they want to do this treatment at home, given that the state regulations allow it, we can do that.
And in the states that require that in-person visit, the option then comes to the patient, what do you wanna do for your second visit? Come back to the office or do this treatment at home. And so within the confines of the rules, I think just figuring out what’s best for the patient, helping them build that understanding and letting them be autonomous in their care.
Right. That’s the goal for all of us practitioners.
I think it’s special to speak kind of a, you know, physician to physician and hopefully those who are listening, who are also mental health professionals, realize that we’re not only talking about learning more about how to use this treatment, but to realize that these treatments are available for all of us.
And we need to take away the stigma of mental health to say that we’re only treating the ill and realize that mental health is a preventative healthcare industry, that we need to all step up for ourselves, mental health professionals included. And so, you know, for anyone there who’s thinking maybe they wanna give this a try, I would encourage ’em to take that step forward, find, you know, the program, the office, the company, the location that’s suitable for you.
And if it’s us, you know, you can come find us@betterucare.com with just the letter you. We’ve been treating a lot of physicians and lawyers and health professionals who in my traditional psychiatric practice, aren’t as open and willing because I think we’ve stigmatized that there’s something wrong if you go see a psychiatrist and we want to change that, and there’s something, right?
You’re working on just trying to be your best self.
Bruce Bassi: Derek and Dr. Sam, I appreciate you both the founders or co-founders of Better You, it sounds like. You know, getting to know you better. I, I really do appreciate everything you’re doing for patients and our society in trying to reverse some of the fear that people have towards, towards psychedelic medications through, through our history.
I think that’s, that’s how, you know, fear has been stoked politically about medications and I think it is an upward, upward battle. And you know, you are doing everything you can to try to reeducate people on that front. And so I think I also appreciate your more thoughtful, empathic approach to patients and making sure that you also give individualized care and not a one size fits all approach to just drive profits and revenue,
Dr. Sam Zand: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for the work you do and helping educate people.
Bruce Bassi: Thank you, Derek, do you have any closing comments?
Derek Du Chesne: yeah, the, for anybody that’s out there that’s, that’s struggling, especially with suicidal ideation and, and suicidal thoughts like this, this is something that can help and, and, and saves lives. And a lot of people, at least I know when I was feeling that way, that you feel like there’s, nobody can understand you or, or nothing’s going to help and, or you’ve tried everything and, and when you’re losing hope is when things really start to become scary and to know that there is.
Another option out there. There is another alternative out there. And, and to not give up hope that when you are feeling that way, you feel all alone. And, and that there are people out there that, that, that can help. And that, there are people out there that do love you and that do care about you. And we’re here to help you come back to that realization and to help you feel like yourself again.
And I hope more people are receptive and open to this kind of treatment because it can, it can save lives.
Bruce Bassi: Nice. Thank you for that hopeful comment and closing. I appreciate you both being here today.
Derek Du Chesne: I appreciate you. Thank you
Dr. Sam Zand: for your time.
Bruce Bassi: Thanks.
